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10.48pm
16 February 2011
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Mod note: here are other threads about Stuart 1.) Picture of Sutcliffe with Sheridan 2.) Stuart Sutcliffe’s Hofner President Bass 3.) Stuart Sutcliffe painting/art 4.)
Estate of late Beatle Stuart Sutcliffe opens his first fan club
So, I finally got this book “Stuart Sutcliffe: Beatles’ shadow…etc” in my hands written by Pauline Sutcliffe, Stuart’s sister. Now, I know a lot of you will probably doubt the credibility of that book but the subject rose to my mind again when I started reading “Can’t Buy Me Love “(btw what is this habit of Beatles’ biographers to diss other bio writers. I have had it in every single book that I have read).
So, I finally found some information about his height though I don’t think anyone will be interested about it and I don’t know why I’m bothered about it, either. So, according this Pauline book Stuart was about five feet seven-I don’t really get these feet and inch things, but according to my phone that’s about 174cm and according to all other sources 170cm so I guess the latter one is right. Is that so short? I mean, short enough to be teased about in the 60s? Wonder what was the average height back then, 174 cm or something?
And, what do you guys think about this controversial issue what was Stuart’s (unfortunate) cause of death? Was it, like the writer of “John Lennon -the encyclopedia” ( I may be a bit biased about that book since I can’t stand the style in which he writes. Not only he disses everyone else but he also seems to think that he knows better than McCartney and other people close to Lennon) suggests, the result of him falling down the stairs, which, apparently, Stuart’s mother has told in an interview. Somehow, this doesn’t match up with the fact that Millie (Stuart’s mother) apparently was always keen to find the reason for his death and that she didn’t have any definite answer. Pauline also mentions nothing about this stair incident, which makes me kind of suspicious about it ever happening it all.
Or, was it, like Pauline and some other people suggest, the mixed effect of taking too much pills and living a very unhealthy lifestyle combined with the much talked about and unverified attack from John. Apparently Paul was the witness of this “scene”, although he claims he can’t remember any big fight between John and Stuart. Pauline, however, says that Stuart told her about it himself. Whether such a fight (or rather, an attack) happened, and if it had any influence on Stuart’s untimely death, I don’t like the way some people, especially fans, deal with this issue. Of course I find it disgusting if John had beaten up his close friend(that badly), but what is the reason Pauline’s word counts less than others? I can sort of understand why she would have felt inhibited by the Beatles community back then.
Of course, Stuart’s direct cause of death was hemorr… Ok, I give up, internal brain leakage, but what was the underlying cause of it for such a young man seems to remain unclear. I really hope it wasn’t John and if it was I hope John didn’t think he was like Pauline seems to think. (Ridden by guilt? How does she know that? And I suppose he had a lot of reasons to feel guilty…)
I’m so sorry about this super long message. It’s just that… Stuart is kind of my favorite Beatle, if I can call him that never actually hearing him play or sing. And what do you think about that Backbeat movie?
11.02pm
4 December 2010
Offline 5'7 is fairly short for a full grown man today, but the average height is increasing over time as far as I know. He'd have been a few inches (an inch is roughly three centimetres) shorter than John, Paul and George, which is noticeable.
I doubt an attack on Stuart by John would have happened. I mean, why wasn't John arrested?
I told her I didn’t
11.28pm
16 February 2011
Offline The Walrus said:
5’7 is fairly short for a full grown man today, but the average height is increasing over time as far as I know. He’d have been a few inches (an inch is roughly three centimetres) shorter than John, Paul and George, which is noticeable.
I doubt an attack on Stuart by John would have happened. I mean, why wasn’t John arrested?
Now…That is easy. The only suspect was Paul, and there’s no way he would have given John to the police
edit: witness, not sucpect. *bangs head*
1.27am
Reviewers
Moderators
1 May 2011
Offline Another account of Stu's death was that it was caused thru a rival gang attacking the pre-ringo beatles after a gig and that John helped protect Stu who was getting the worst of it. Thats the account given in the tv movie Birth of the Beatles, (where Pete Best was consulted on the events for accuracy and authenticity yet still had so many errors), and a host of other places.
Not sure why but its never concerned me how Stu died, it was more that he died at such a young age when he was finally being recognised as a talented artist and had moved in with Astrid.
Ive never seen Backbeat so cant offer an opinion.
If you are referrring to the same John Lennon encyclopedia that i am thinking of (Bill Harry being the author) then i would agree with you, its pretty lousy (his Beatles encyclopedia is, imho, just as bad – the updated edition maintaining blatant errors that any average beatle fan should know), but all beatles books have errors and different versions of events in them so which account do you go by?
If you are looking/wanting to hear beatles recordings Stu played on then hunt down the liverpool 1960 recordings either on Anthology 1 (only a small handful) or on the countless bootlegs that exist. There are some really good songs including very early versions of I'll Follow The Sun, One After 909 and Hello Little Girl , but be aware tho that there are also long instrumentals that get quite tedious after the first minute or so. (For some reason the majority of bootlegs contain looped sections of the instrumentals heavily extending the running time).
"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)
12.47pm
20 September 2011
Offline 
Bill Harry, Beatles encyclopedia, unreliable? Oh, man, that's the only Beatles-related book in my school library and I was looking forward to checking it out! Grrrr….
"Now and then, though, someone does begin to grow differently. Instead of down, his feet grow up toward the sky. But we do our best to discourage awkward things like that."
"What happens to them?" insisted Milo.
"Oddly enough, they often grow ten times the size of everyone else," said Alec thoughtfully, "and I’ve heard that they walk among the stars."
–The Phantom Tollbooth
1.57pm
16 February 2011
Offline meanmistermustard said:
Another account of Stu's death was that it was caused thru a rival gang attacking the pre-ringo beatles after a gig and that John helped protect Stu who was getting the worst of it. Thats the account given in the tv movie Birth of the Beatles, (where Pete Best was consulted on the events for accuracy and authenticity yet still had so many errors), and a host of other places.
Not sure why but its never concerned me how Stu died, it was more that he died at such a young age when he was finally being recognised as a talented artist and had moved in with Astrid.
Ive never seen Backbeat so cant offer an opinion.
If you are referrring to the same John Lennon encyclopedia that i am thinking of (Bill Harry being the author) then i would agree with you, its pretty lousy (his Beatles encyclopedia is, imho, just as bad – the updated edition maintaining blatant errors that any average beatle fan should know), but all beatles books have errors and different versions of events in them so which account do you go by?
If you are looking/wanting to hear beatles recordings Stu played on then hunt down the liverpool 1960 recordings either on Anthology 1 (only a small handful) or on the countless bootlegs that exist. There are some really good songs including very early versions of I'll Follow The Sun, One After 909 and Hello Little Girl , but be aware tho that there are also long instrumentals that get quite tedious after the first minute or so. (For some reason the majority of bootlegs contain looped sections of the instrumentals heavily extending the running time).
I've heard about that fight, but I'm confused as to whether it really happened and if it did, where it happened. Apparently John's finger got crooked in the process. In some versions John alone rescues Stuart, and on others Pete Best is the main hero. I don't know if this fight had anything to do with Stuart's death
Yeah… That book is Bill Harry's. I just can't stand the way in which he phrases things. I wonder if there is any Beatles writer that isn't badly biased
I'd love to hear Stu. But… That anthology version only credits Stuart for one song. And the track in which he is supposed to play I can't even distinct the bass, because my skills are rather poor and the quality is awful. Pauline said in her book that there are some recordings in which John and Stuart practise together and apparently Stuart sings too. Unfortunately, those records are gone but I'm dying to hear them if they ever are found. After all, a lot of stuff has been found over the years… I wonder if Yoko is still hiding that blue abstract of Stuart's and the long letters that Stuart and John sent to each other, I wouldn't be too surprised
8.40pm
Reviewers
Moderators
1 May 2011
Offline You can hear stu's bass on many of the bootleg tracks, unfortunately its quite apparent that he wasnt that good a musician as its pretty basic and plodding. Many of the songs are on youtube and 4 are below just click on the links, there are too many to link all of them here. And yes the quality isnt that great, but that shouldnt be a surprise considering how they were recorded and when. And they are no worse than listening to Revolution #9 loud thru your earphones.
I'll Always Be In Love With You
I Dont Need No Cigarettes, Boy
I doubt anyone really knows what caused Stu's death, it wouldnt surprise me that the beatles were attacked as they played in many horribly rough places and there would have been a lot of gangs who would have seen them as fair game. I cant see John attacking Stu ever, not to the extent of such a serious injury. Did he ever fight with Paul, George or Pete?
It was more the errors in Bill Harry's book that annoyed me, a lot of it will be accurate but the mistakes really bugged me. There will be far better beatles and john lennon encyclopedia's out there, but maybe not in the school library.
"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)
3.09pm
31 March 2008
Offline
I’m sure I’ve posted this before, but it’s worth mentioning again: A medically informed post-mortem on Stuart Sutcliffe.
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12.59am
12 November 2012
Offline I highly doubt that John kicked Stu. Pauline Sutcliffe also made some other false claims, such as John and Stu having a sexual relationship. They would trade girls once in a while, but John did not need that type of satisfaction from Stu.
I know that Paul and Stu got into a fight at the Top Ten Club, but this did not cause his death. Paul said something about Astrid, and Stu got very angry. 
"The world is a very serious and, at times, very sad place - but at other times it is all such a joke."-George Harrison
8.40am
14 October 2012
Offline I’ve heard all the different theories listed here. The falling-down-the-stairs one seems most plausible to me. However, the one about the Beatles getting into a fight and Stu getting battered until John protected him also sounds like the sort of thing which would realistically happen (in Backbeat, isn’t it suggested that the fight at the very beginning is the cuase of Stu’s death? That’s what I thought). There are other accounts of Lennon being violent in the late 50s/early 60s, even towards people he cared about (Cynthia, Bob Wooler) so it wouldn’t totally shock me if he did duff Stu up, but obviously they were best friends and John would never mean to kill him. It was a violent time and Lennon was an angry young man. So essentially I think all the theories are plausible but the falling-down-the-stairs one sounds most likely to me.
I’ve always thought it was a bit strange that Pauline suggested that Stu and John were lovers. It seems highly unlikely to me that they were, but I think Pauline’s theory is worth taking into account.
I really like Backbeat as a film, although there are some inaccuracies; I know that Cyn thought she was portrayed too clingy and girly, and Paul was disgruntled and John is shown singing Long Tall Sally . However, Paul and Astrid both said that Stu in the film is almost exactly like Stu was in real life. I think its an exciting and emotive insight into the early Beatles and their lives. The actor who plays George has the voice spot on, and the film has the right mix of Rock ‘N’ Roll , romance, action, emotion, laddish Liverpool banter and tragedy.
"I don't think we were actually swimming, as it were, with shirts on, 'cos we always wear overcoats when we're swimming,"-
George Harrison, Australia, June 1964
4.48pm
16 July 2013
Offline Sounds wierd huh?
But i read long ago that it actually did happen and was hushed
And blamed on thee old story, litherland town hall scuffle.
Mmmm theres one for mister sherlock homes to ponder over
THE SNAZZ
5.09pm
9 July 2013
Offline That is a story that has been going round forever. Truth (as I see it..I wasn’t there) is that it was John who believed this after Stu died. He blamed himself for his death. Stu died of a cerebral hemorage (burst artery in brain). It may or may not have been the result of a scuffle (there were scuffle in Hamburg as well). I don’t think anyone ever tried to cover anything up. I know Astrid never blamed John. John blamed John and I think that gave the story its life.
"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."
6.02pm
1 August 2013
Offline IIRC, the story of John beating up Stu comes from Pauline Sutcliffe, Stu’s sister. It may have since been corroborated by another source? Anyway, according to Pauline, John did wonder and agonize over whether he might have caused/worsened Stu’s condition, but a doctor told Pauline no, it wouldn’t have made any difference at all.
8.43pm
Reviewers
17 December 2012
Offline
Pauline Sutcliffe is firmly of the opinion that John was the cause of Stuart’s death, stating in her 2001 biography of Stuart, The Beatles Shadow, Stuart Sutcliffe, & his lonely hearts club, “I believe that the cerebral hemorrhage that cost Stuart his life was caused by an injury inflicted by John in a jealous rage. A postmortem revealed Stuart had a dent in his skull, as though from a blow or kick. And a few months earlier, John had viciously kicked my brother in the head in a sustained, unprovoked attack.”
There’s an article on Steve Hoffman’s forum from 2003 that talks about her opinion.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/…..ims.18242/
However, her opinion is disputed, and Rockmine has a “virtual post-mortem” based on the known facts and evidence.
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12.14am
14 December 2009
Offline The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.
Paul: Yeah well… first of all, we’re bringing out a ‘Stamp Out Detroit’ campaign.
12.34am
1 August 2013
Offline mja6758 said
Pauline Sutcliffe is firmly of the opinion that John was the cause of Stuart’s death, stating in her 2001 biography of Stuart, The Beatles Shadow, Stuart Sutcliffe, & his lonely hearts club, “I believe that the cerebral hemorrhage that cost Stuart his life was caused by an injury inflicted by John in a jealous rage. A postmortem revealed Stuart had a dent in his skull, as though from a blow or kick. And a few months earlier, John had viciously kicked my brother in the head in a sustained, unprovoked attack.”
Yeesh! I musta blocked that out. Who am I thinking of, then? Astrid? I’m sure somebody (a primary source) said that they were told at the time by doctors that a blow to the head would not have made any difference to Stu’s condition — that it was a congenital thing or summat.
4.14am
1 November 2012
Offline mja, have you ever considered writing a book yourself about the Beatles? I’m impressed by how much knowledge you have of so many facts about them.
Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
10.50am
21 November 2012
Offline Von Bontee said
The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.
That’s what I’ve read in other places too, and that’s also what’s thought by many, that they just had a fight on the streets with some teddy boys.
Asked if she believed the punch-up with Lennon was the most significant contributing factor to her brother’s death, she replied: “Yes.” She also re-stated her belief that Sutcliffe and Lennon, who became close friends while studying together at Liverpool College of Art, had a homosexual affair. “John said himself at one point that this happened.”
Lol. Sorry but I don’t know if I can take this seriously.
It’s also very easy to say anything about John, since he’s not able to defend himself anymore. Looks as if someone just needed money.
12.59am
2 October 2013
Offline minime said
So, I finally got this book “Stuart Sutcliffe: Beatles’ shadow…etc” in my hands written by Pauline Sutcliffe, Stuart’s sister. Now, I know a lot of you will probably doubt the credibility of that book but the subject rose to my mind again when I started reading “Can’t Buy Me Love “(btw what is this habit of Beatles’ biographers to diss other bio writers. I have had it in every single book that I have read).So, I finally found some information about his height though I don’t think anyone will be interested about it and I don’t know why I’m bothered about it, either. So, according this Pauline book Stuart was about five feet seven-I don’t really get these feet and inch things, but according to my phone that’s about 174cm and according to all other sources 170cm so I guess the latter one is right. Is that so short? I mean, short enough to be teased about in the 60s? Wonder what was the average height back then, 174 cm or something?
And, what do you guys think about this controversial issue what was Stuart’s (unfortunate) cause of death? Was it, like the writer of “John Lennon -the encyclopedia” ( I may be a bit biased about that book since I can’t stand the style in which he writes. Not only he disses everyone else but he also seems to think that he knows better than McCartney and other people close to Lennon) suggests, the result of him falling down the stairs, which, apparently, Stuart’s mother has told in an interview. Somehow, this doesn’t match up with the fact that Millie (Stuart’s mother) apparently was always keen to find the reason for his death and that she didn’t have any definite answer. Pauline also mentions nothing about this stair incident, which makes me kind of suspicious about it ever happening it all.
Or, was it, like Pauline and some other people suggest, the mixed effect of taking too much pills and living a very unhealthy lifestyle combined with the much talked about and unverified attack from John. Apparently Paul was the witness of this “scene”, although he claims he can’t remember any big fight between John and Stuart. Pauline, however, says that Stuart told her about it himself. Whether such a fight (or rather, an attack) happened, and if it had any influence on Stuart’s untimely death, I don’t like the way some people, especially fans, deal with this issue. Of course I find it disgusting if John had beaten up his close friend(that badly), but what is the reason Pauline’s word counts less than others? I can sort of understand why she would have felt inhibited by the Beatles community back then.
Of course, Stuart’s direct cause of death was hemorr… Ok, I give up, internal brain leakage, but what was the underlying cause of it for such a young man seems to remain unclear. I really hope it wasn’t John and if it was I hope John didn’t think he was like Pauline seems to think. (Ridden by guilt? How does she know that? And I suppose he had a lot of reasons to feel guilty…)
I’m so sorry about this super long message. It’s just that… Stuart is kind of my favorite Beatle, if I can call him that never actually hearing him play or sing. And what do you think about that Backbeat movie?
I’m so sorry about this super long message. It’s just that… Stuart is kind of my favorite Beatle, if I can call him that never actually hearing him play or sing. And what do you think about that Backbeat movie?
I came across this thread a couple days ago, and though this post is from a couple years ago and you might’ve already heard about what I’m about to explain, just in case you haven’t – there is now a recording out there of Stuart singing “Love Me Tender” by Elvis Presley. It’s on iTunes and it’s legitimate ( here’s a great website explaining the recording’s accuracy: http://daytrippin.com/2011/10/…..-sutcliffe ) ( you’ll probably have to copy and paste it into your browser since my computer, which is ironically named Stuart, is being obnoxious and not underlining the whole thing ). The song is a wonderful find and always a joy to listen to c: When I first found it, I honestly really doubted if it was actually Stu, but it surely is (: If you’d like to have a listen without buying, here it is on YouTube:
1.21am
Reviewers
Moderators
1 May 2011
Offline Love Me Tender was pretty much found to be a fake. There is a detailed discussion on this thread (different forum) which has a lot of information and comparison.
Enjoy the youtube video, save your money, and move on.
"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)
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