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Let It Be – Imagine
9 August 2016
4.54pm
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Oudis
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I wonder whether this is the right place to post this (*mods wink wink*)

Perhaps this line of reasoning isn’t new, many of you will probably say “Duh, Oudis discovered fire”, but I wonder if John’s Imagine wasn’t a response to Paul’s Let It Be . I mean: both are kind of anthems, aren’t they? Sung and played over and over again all over the world. And Let It Be was released and composed first, in 1970. It has the “Mother Mary” bit that, if I recall correctly, irritated John. So John comes up with Imagine a year later, and there he asks us to think of a world with no Heaven, Hell or religion. Given that in the early days they collaborated but later competed against each other, given the differences in their personalities and ideologies, maybe this is a fair assumption. Anyone care to comment?

Let-It-Be.jpgImage Enlarger

Imagine.jpgImage Enlarger

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

9 August 2016
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Oudis said

I wonder whether this is the right place to post this (*mods wink wink*)

Perhaps this line of reasoning isn’t new, many of you will probably say “Duh, Oudis discovered fire”, but I wonder if John’s Imagine wasn’t a response to Paul’s Let It Be . I mean: both are kind of anthems, aren’t they? Sung and played over and over again all over the world. And Let It Be was released and composed first, in 1970. It has the “Mother Mary” bit that, if I recall correctly, irritated John. So John comes up with Imagine a year later, and there he asks us to think of a world with no Heaven, Hell or religion. Given that in the early days they collaborated but later competed against each other, given the differences in their personalities and ideologies, maybe this is a fair assumption. Anyone care to comment?

Let-It-Be.jpgImage Enlarger

Imagine.jpgImage Enlarger
  

‘Let It be’ was composed in late 1968, rehearsed and mostly recorded in January 1969 with later overdubs recorded in April 1969 and January 1970.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

9 August 2016
6.38pm
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William Shears Campbell
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I’ve never given that much thought.  That’s an interesting insight on the two songs.  I’m sure that’s not the only time their songs replied to each other, so it’s quite plausible.  I know that stuff happened a bit during the late Beatles/early solo era.

 

 

@Oudis revealed another clue for us all

Let-It-Be.jpgImage Enlarger

Also Paul’s on a red background!  PiD confirmed!paul-mccartney-thumb_gif

(sorry I had toa-hard-days-night-paul-11)

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9 August 2016
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@meanmistermustard said
‘Let It be’ was composed in late 1968, rehearsed and mostly recorded in January 1969 with later overdubs recorded in April 1969 and January 1970.  

Even with the correct dates, this still works.

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9 August 2016
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Oudis
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Alright @meanmistermustard, I stand corrected:  Let It Be was composed in late 1968, rehearsed and recorded in January 1969 with later overdubs recorded in April 1969 / January 1970. But, do you see my point? Or do you disagree?

Thanks @William Shears Campbell. You put it beautifully: their songs replied to each other.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

9 August 2016
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meanmistermustard
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Never given it any thought. Could be, cound not be.

Has John ever spoken about the inspiration behind writing ‘Imagine ‘?

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9 August 2016
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It’s an interesting point, @Oudis — thanks for bringing it up. 

meanmistermustard shouted out something not obscene
Has John ever spoken about the inspiration behind writing ‘Imagine ‘?  

Joe says

It was inspired by Cloud Piece, an instructional poem dated Spring 1963 that appeared in Yoko Ono’s book Grapefruit.

Imagine the clouds dripping.
Dig a hole in your garden to
put them in.

That’s all I’ve heard about it. It could be subconscious plagiarism a-hard-days-night-george-10 

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9 August 2016
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It would’ve been pretty awkward if Yoko had sued him for that a-hard-days-night-paul-7ahdn_george_06

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17 August 2016
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Silly Girl said

Joe says

It was inspired by Cloud Piece, an instructional poem dated Spring 1963 that appeared in Yoko Ono’s book Grapefruit.

Imagine the clouds dripping.
Dig a hole in your garden to
put them in.

That’s all I’ve heard about it. It could be subconscious plagiarism a-hard-days-night-george-10   

I wonder where Joe got this information from. Of course John would have to say his inspiration was a poem by his beloved one, not a reply to a song composed by Paul. I don’t think it was subconscious plagiarism, sorry to say @Beatlebug. I think Paul, at that time, was John’s sworn enemy, and Imagine was John’s comeback at Let It Be .

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

17 August 2016
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Firstly, the inspiration behind Imagine .

Cloud Piece from Grapefruit was certainly a major influence on it, @Beatlebug. The spark for it was the gift of a Christian prayer book given to him and Yoko by American civil rights activist Dick Gregory. John described his intentions with David Sheff during the 1980 Playboy interview:

The concept of positive prayer … If you can imagine a world at peace, with no denominations of religion — not without religion but without this my God -is-bigger-than-your-God thing — then it can be true … the World Church called me once and asked, “Can we use the lyrics to ‘Imagine ‘ and just change it to ‘Imagine one religion’?” That showed they didn’t understand it at all. It would defeat the whole purpose of the song, the whole idea.

Composed, more-or-less, in one morning during early 1971, I see nothing about it that would suggest it is a response or reaction to Paul’s Let It Be . To me, it’s almost like asking whether John’s Woman  was inspired by Paul’s My Love.

It’s two years after Let It Be , and while there were elements of it John would have done differently, it certainly wasn’t a song of Paul’s that fell into that group of songs John hated. While the melodies of both have a “hymnal” quality, they are also very of their composer.

John was increasingly writing on piano, and had been since 1968. Most times he would switch his piano compositions to guitar-led recordings. In the instance of Imagine  it was always the “piano ballad”.

You make the observation, @Oudis, that Paul sings of Mother Mary while John asks us to imagine a world without division, including those caused by religion. How is John’s Utopian vision in any way a reflection on Paul’s mother appearing in his dreams to reassure him everything would be alright.

See, you seem to be making a connection between Paul’s evocation of Mother Mary, and John’s request to imagine a world not divided by religion. John was well aware that Paul’s “Mother Mary” was Paul’s mother, and not the Virgin Mary, mother of JC.

Your connection, it seems to me, only works if John believed “Mother Mary” was a religious reference from Paul, which he dismissed with his, “Imagine no religion…”

He knew Let It Be  had nothing to do with religion though, but was a son’s lament to his lost mother, and the comfort she could still bring him at his most troubled.

There is no connection between the songs lyrically, while musically the only connection is that they are both piano-led songs with a hymnal style.

Paul’s was a very personal song, while John was making another attempt at distilling what the world could do with to become a better place.

Plus, John was never shy about saying when he responding to Paul in some way, and John never even hinted at any connection.

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18 August 2016
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OK @Ron Nasty, I see. You’ve raised some valid points. Maybe I’m reading too much into this. For instance, I always thought that “Mother Mary” was a reference to Virgin Mary. And I’ll admit it –it bothered me. Oh how it bothered me. I’ll confess, though, that the connection is still pretty clear to me –but I’ll also admit that such connection may only exist in my mind.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

9 February 2017
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Not sure if any one has said this, but Mother Mary is Paul’s mum not the virgin Mary, but it is often misinterpreted to be religious. As for comparisons between the two songs, Imagine is pretty much the greatest song ever written (A few competitors are Like A Rolling Stone, Bohemian Rhapsody, Stairway To Heaven, What A Wonderful World, Can’t Help Falling In Love and A Day In The Life ), but I definitely prefer listening to Let It Be , especially the album version with it’s soaring solo. 

I think its plausible that John wrote Imagine as a response to Let It Be but there are a couple flaws

a) the aforementioned non spirituality of let it be, rendering the imagine no religion point pointless

b) John reportedly didn’t think much of let it be, not in a hatred way, he just thought it wasn’t a beatles song. Some people may say his dislike caused him to react against it with imagine but I think he would be far more likely to react to a song he thought was amazing and wanted to beat.

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9 February 2017
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Paul has said that he was aware of the religious dimension of Let It Be .

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9 February 2017
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I agree with @QuarryMan that it wasn’t a direct response against Let It Be , but an attempt at beating it. Both seem like John and Paul’s attempts at “the greatest song ever.” 

A typically critism of both songs is that the chords are simple and the message is cheesey, but these two ingredients are what make the songs so timeless and universal. Whether or not John loved or hated Let It Be , he wrote Imagine from a similar place. 

Whether or not you like the songs, both have become known as some of the best songs ever written. 

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9 February 2017
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Good thing Paul didn’t go with the “Brother Malcolm” iteration of the lyrics. That would have been less evocative…or evocative of something else entirely. 

17 February 2017
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Pablo Ramon said
Good thing Paul didn’t go with the “Brother Malcolm” iteration of the lyrics. That would have been less evocative…or evocative of something else entirely.   

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

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3 February 2019
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On the flip side, do you think Let it Be was a response to Julia ?  That inspired/competitive thing that ran through both of them and we now know Let it Be was written around the time of the White Album .  I always wonder if maybe Paul wasn’t open with them at the time that it was about his mum and John just thought it was Paul trying his hand at a religious song (with Aretha in mind).  I would hope John would have been less snooty about it if he had known.

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3 February 2019
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Perhaps Paul was inspired to write for his mother after hearing Julia , but I think Paul had more in mind with Let It Be . While Julia is gentle and sweet, with cryptic lyrics that switch between a longing for his mother and a longing for Yoko. Let It Be is a poweful piano ballad with soaring vocals that is aiming to be an anthem for all people. Songs like Bridge Over Troubled Water and Imagine have much more noticeable similarities to Let It Be , which were both inspired by it. 

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Wow, this is a pretty interesting take on the two songs. I’m not sure which song I like more. Since I play the piano, I think that Imagine is more unique of a song than Let It Be . However, Let It Be is also a great song to learn on the piano for beginners. 

 

With this being said, “Let It Be ” is one of the more popular songs recommended for pianists. I found this list of songs interesting here: https://keyboardkraze.com/five…..-on-piano/

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dannyrichardson said
Wow, this is a pretty interesting take on the two songs. I’m not sure which song I like more. Since I play the piano, I think that Imagine is more unique of a song than Let It Be . However, Let It Be is also a great song to learn on the piano for beginners.

  

Welcome to the forum! I think it would have to be Let It Be for me, since I haven’t heard it as much and the different versions mean I have different guitar solos to choose from, but I would agree that Imagine is more unique. The lyric is pretty ambitious in terms of content.

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