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Odd time signatures
6 November 2024
12.22pm
think for myself
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The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it’s like the “just let me hear some of that–” line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

6 November 2024
10.20pm
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Sea Belt
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think for myself said
The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it’s like the “just let me hear some of that–” line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

  

6/8 can overlap with 4/4, but it’s kind of hard to explain how.

As for various Beatles songs where they put in a measure here or there in some exotic time — as a songwriter (and as a person) I’m kind of OCD, and I feel like, if one of my lyric lines seems to need to be in 5/4, I feel like maybe I should make the whole song 5/4 — or change that line to 4/4.  I try to avoid mixing up different time signatures in the same song — unless it seems inspired to do so.

Now today I find, you have changed your mind

7 November 2024
10.50am
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Shamrock Womlbs
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think for myself said
The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it’s like the “just let me hear some of that–” line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

  

Dig A Pony sounds in plain and simple 3/4 to me. Even the intro, i do not find any 4/4 measure there mccartney-shrug_01_gif

"I Need You by George Harrison"

7 November 2024
2.49pm
think for myself
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Shamrock Womlbs said

think for myself said

The intro of Rock And Roll Music is a bit weird, it’s like the “just let me hear some of that–” line is in a bar of 7/8, the rest is 4/4.

I also find it weird that although Dig A Pony is in 6/8, you can actually count 1-2-3-4- into the intro riff and it still works, that is until I realized that the intro can be broken down to a bar of 4/4 plus a bar of 2/4

  

Dig A Pony sounds in plain and simple 3/4 to me. Even the intro, i do not find any 4/4 measure there mccartney-shrug_01_gif

  

So I did some research and found that you can count the intro of Dig A Pony as 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2 which are four bars of 6/8, but you can actually interpret this as two bars of regular 4/4 but with triplets, though Ringo’s drumming on the intro is in regular 3/4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3. the verses are indeed just regular 3/4.

7 November 2024
3.47pm
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Shamrock Womlbs
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think for myself said

So I did some research and found that you can count the intro of Dig A Pony as 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2 which are four bars of 6/8, but you can actually interpret this as two bars of regular 4/4 but with triplets, though Ringo’s drumming on the intro is in regular 3/4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3. the verses are indeed just regular 3/4.

But… why would you do that? the strong beat is the first one of every group of three 1-2-3, 1-2-3… It goes like this:

https://www.noteflight.com/mus…..dig-a-pony

Even they count 1-2-3 before start playing

  

"I Need You by George Harrison"

8 November 2024
12.15am
think for myself
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Shamrock Womlbs said

think for myself said

So I did some research and found that you can count the intro of Dig A Pony as 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2, 1-2-3-4-1-2 which are four bars of 6/8, but you can actually interpret this as two bars of regular 4/4 but with triplets, though Ringo’s drumming on the intro is in regular 3/4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3. the verses are indeed just regular 3/4.

But… why would you do that? the strong beat is the first one of every group of three 1-2-3, 1-2-3… It goes like this:

https://www.noteflight.com/mus…..dig-a-pony

Even they count 1-2-3 before start playing

  

  

Yeah, you’re right on that.

8 November 2024
7.50pm
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Von Bontee
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Sea Belt said

Probably the most famous pop example of 3/4 time on top of 4/4:
 

  

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Bill Withers’ “Ain’t No Sunshine”, great song! You’re talking about the “I know I know I know I know etc…” ×17 bit, no doubt…

And it just occurred to me now that John L does something very similar in the chorus of “John Sinclair”, using three beats to chant a two-syllable phrase (“Got-ta got-ta” in place of “I Know”) and repeating that many, many times over a long stretch, 16 bars or whatever. I’d say there was a very good chance that soul-music superfan John was consciously thinking of “Ain’t No Sunshine” while recording that “Sometime in NYC” album track; it would have been mere months after Withers’ hit took the world by storm.

Paul: Yeah well… first of all, we’re bringing out a ‘Stamp Out Detroit’ campaign.

         

9 November 2024
12.29am
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Sea Belt
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Von Bontee said

Sea Belt said

Probably the most famous pop example of 3/4 time on top of 4/4:
 

  

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Bill Withers’ “Ain’t No Sunshine”, great song! You’re talking about the “I know I know I know I know etc…” ×17 bit, no doubt…

And it just occurred to me now that John L does something very similar in the chorus of “John Sinclair”, using three beats to chant a two-syllable phrase (“Got-ta got-ta” in place of “I Know”) and repeating that many, many times over a long stretch, 16 bars or whatever. I’d say there was a very good chance that soul-music superfan John was consciously thinking of “Ain’t No Sunshine” while recording that “Sometime in NYC” album track; it would have been mere months after Withers’ hit took the world by storm.

  

Wow, nice example. I had never heard this song before today (which tells you something about my fanship of Lennon’s solo years).  I still prefer Withers’ 3/4 overlay because it’s subtler yet in a way has more impact because of the stately slow tempo.

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Now today I find, you have changed your mind

14 November 2024
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vonbontee
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Oh, Withers’ song is much better than John’s bit of propaganda, no doubt – propaganda which ended up being entirely meaningless, since Sinclair was ultimately released upon appeal, before the song was even released!

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Sea Belt

GEORGE: In fact, The Detroit Sound. JOHN: In fact, yes. GEORGE: In fact, yeah. Tamla-Motown artists are our favorites. The Miracles. JOHN: We like Marvin Gaye. GEORGE: The Impressions PAUL & GEORGE: Mary Wells. GEORGE: The Exciters. RINGO: Chuck Jackson. JOHN: To name but eighty. 

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5 December 2024
8.02pm
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Sea Belt
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Another example of 3/4 on top of 4/4 — Gregg Rolie’s superb organ solo on Evil Ways.

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx4…..FjeeKeONHQ

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6 December 2024
3.40pm
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Shamrock Womlbs
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A beatley example of 4/4 over 3/4 is on the “when I hold you…”  section in Happiness Is A Warm Gun  

"I Need You by George Harrison"

6 December 2024
8.31pm
JasonParis
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think for myself said

But… why would you do that? the strong beat is the first one of every group of three 1-2-3, 1-2-3…

Even they count 1-2-3 before start playing

The answer is, well, complicated.   

It boils down to the function of 6/8 in music.   For example, why do composers use 6/8 and not 3/4?   Aren’t they exactly the same?

No, they’re not.

3/4 is ‘waltz time’… think OOM-pah-pah, OOM-pah-pah… ONE-two-three, ONE-two-three.   Each beat has the duration of a quarter-note, as indicated by the /4.   And, as there are three quarter-notes to each bar, the time signature is 3/4.

6/8, on the other hand, is really 2/4 with a faster feeling.   Consider a slow 2/4 beat:  ONE – TWO, ONE – TWO.   Again, each beat has the duration of the quarter-note.   Now, break the ONE into equal thirds, and do the same to the TWO.   You’ve now got ONE-two-three, TWO-two-three, which is 6/8.   But do you see that the 2/4 is still “inside” the 6/8?   

See how 6/8 feels much faster than 2/4?   That’s because the basic meter has just been cut into thirds:  from quarter-notes to eighth-triplet-notes.

If you’re confused, here’s a helpful analogy.   Consider a clock face, with an hour-hand and seconds-hand.   In the space of one hour, the hour-hand goes round once, but the seconds-hand goes round 60 times.    Why?   Because the seconds-hand is counting smaller quantities of time, and therefore moves faster than the hour-hand.

So it is with 6/8:  it’s counting smaller quantities of time (i.e. eighth-triplet-notes), so it feels faster than 2/4 (which is counting quarter-notes). 

Now, let’s bring all this back to ‘Dig A Pony ‘, before one of us has a cerebral haemorrhage… 

I propose that the song’s time signatures, from a musicologist’s perspective, actually run as follows:

INTRO:  3/8 x 8 bars.   (A fast OOM-pah-pah.)

VERSE:  4/4 x 1 bar.   2/4 x 1 bar.  1/4 x 1 bar.   2/4 x 1 bar.   4/4 x 1 bar.

With the beats falling like this:

1           2           3          4              1            2                          1                                         1         2            1                                       2                  3              4

I – a-hi hi  a-hi hi              dig a  po-ony     Well you can celebrate anything you want       yes,  you can celebrate any-thing you want.       Oh now.

When considered this way, the switch from the eighth-note-based meter in the Intro to the quarter-note-based meter in the Verse has the effect of slowing the feel right down, while maintaining the same tempo.  (Of course, the */4 bars have a triplet feel, which maintains the rhythmic relationship with the Intro.)

Obviously The Beatles weren’t thinking about this nonsense when writing/performing the song… they weren’t musicologists.   Which, in a sense, is a pity, because if Ringo, as the laying-down-the-beat dude in the band, had thought this way, he would’ve struck his bass drum, not snare, on the eighth beat of every verse (“want”/”go”/”are”/”no”/”see”/”row”), which better fits the ‘Bass Drum on 1 and 3 / Snare on 2 and 4’ pattern.   

(Incidentally, he makes this same ‘error’ in ‘Happiness Is A Warm Gun ‘, in the “I need a fix” section.   “Down to the bits” should start with a bass drum note, not snare.)

Told you it was complicated… ahdn_john_08_gif

Explaining how ‘Yer Blues ‘ and ‘I Me Mine ‘ (two songs that share ‘Dig A Pony ‘s triplet feel) speed up/slow down through time-signature changes is even more complicated! They go from 4/4 to 4/8 then back to 4/4… while retaining the triplet feel the whole time!  paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif

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