Please consider registering
Guest
sp_LogInOut Log Insp_Registration Register
Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
Odd time signatures
10 June 2012
9.25pm
Avatar
Artie Fisk
A Beginning
Members
Forum Posts: 8
Member Since:
6 June 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oh, snap! Forgot about them.  Yeah, I guess Baby’s In Black has to be 6/8, doesn’t it?  Never thought about it before, but you’re right. Very jazzy, that beat, amongst the folk-rocking, innit?

 

Now that I count it, yep, I Want You (She’s So Heavy) ends in 6/8, too.  Oh! Darling , too. 

 

Damn, I’ve gotta ungunk my ears.  Need to go back and really LISTEN for these things. 

 

***

 

So, I ought to credit Pollack for his work properly:

 

My post on the shifting time signatures in GMGM is a summary of work done by the estimable Mr. Alan W. Pollack, copyright (C) 1996, and findable here:

http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds…..m.shtml#q1

 

If ANY of you who are musicians and Beatle fans haven’t spent a good chunk of time perusing Mr. Pollack’s work, you SHOULD.  There’s a very nice website with multiple ways to access his analyses here:

http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds…..s_on.shtml

 

I have contacted Mr. Pollack (but not heard back from him) to suggest that he consider publishing his “Notes On” series in book form.  If he ever does, it will sit on my Beatles reference shelf, right next to the Lewisohn, the Anthology, Andy Babiuk’s Beatles Gear, and Geoff Emerick’s book.  I bow to his ears and his wisdom. 

The following people thank Artie Fisk for this post:

Beatlebug

"There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy: All You Need Is Love"

11 June 2012
2.17am
Avatar
Into the Sky with Diamonds
New York
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 1984
Member Since:
10 August 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Very interesting….

Although I can see it as a good music theory exercise,  I still wonder why in the 21st century this would matter.

I can see how in the days before recorded music a musician could only go by sheet music; the meter would indicate the cadence.

But today?

Any thoughts on this?

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)

11 June 2012
5.13am
Avatar
Artie Fisk
A Beginning
Members
Forum Posts: 8
Member Since:
6 June 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Well, if you’re playing it with a band, you need to know where the downbeats are. When the meter changes with every measure, it’s hard to get it right unless you have sussed out the meter changes, and practiced it.  Much easier to practice something like this if you can count it, or it is for me.  I find that if I can memorize the counts to where I really have it “under my fingers,” I can then turn off my brain, and don’t need to count any more.  Music theory exercise or not, you can’t play someone else’s song “correctly” unless you can analyze it properly. 

"There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy: All You Need Is Love"

11 June 2012
9.32am
Ben Ramon
Carnegie Hall
Members
Forum Posts: 613
Member Since:
26 March 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Joe said
Yep, Pollack’s articles are brilliant. I’ve thought about republishing them on this site – apparently it’s OK to do so with a correct credit and back link (ie creative commons, though I don’t think he used the term).

Isn’t Oh! Darling in 6/8? What about the end of I Want You (SSH), Baby’s In Black , Yes It Is , the final bit of MMT?

EDIT: Although George described it as a waltz, I always though I Me Mine was in 6/8. How about Long Long Long? I think that might actually be 3/4, on reflection. And I’m undecided about Yer Blues – that could be 4/4 with a swing beat, or perhaps 12/8.

Maybe you should contact Pollack and ask if you haven’t already? They’re pretty essential reading for any Beatlesmaniac who has an interest in the more in depth musical aspect of the songs.

Paul described Baby’s In Black as a waltz too. I guess it shows that for all their genius they weren’t too clued in on the little details of the theory a-hard-days-night-george-10I think 12/8 would be the appropriate counting for Yer Blues if you were to transcribe it to sheet music, but the way the Beatles play it I think they were imagining it in 4/4 with the swing beat as you described- John’s count of “2, 3” at the beginning suggests this, although Ringo rides the cymbal in 12/8 and Paul’s bass chugs along at the same rate.

I always thought of Yes It Is in 4/4 but now I realize I was wrong, it’s in a pretty fast 6/8 to these ears.

SHUT UP - Paulie's talkin'

11 June 2012
1.13pm
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Thankfully not where I am.
Moderator
Members

Reviewers


Moderators
Forum Posts: 25144
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

This stuff goes way over my head, all the 3/4 and 7/8’s. Have never understood the indepth musical note stuff and would never be able to identify an a# from a g.

The following people thank meanmistermustard for this post:

Bongo, Beatlebug

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)

19 August 2012
12.32am
LTJX
A Beginning
Members
Forum Posts: 7
Member Since:
18 May 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Joe said
I think George was certainly conscious of the changes, as he’d studied Indian music with Ravi Shankar. That’s why Here Comes The Sun is so interesting in its rhythms. I’d imagine McCartney was also aware of the rules and how to break them, but Lennon less so.

I’ve read before that in writing a song Paul tended to come up with the main melody and most of the instrumental parts first.  When the instrumental music was done, Paul would then go looking for words that fit into his new song (or lyrics that “scanned” well as the Beatles would sometimes say).

On the other hand, John was always very much a man of words (he had 2 books published during 1963-65).  And John tended to develop a new song’s lyrics first along with some basic chords, and then gradually build up the musical parts to fit around his words.

Some have suggested this fundamental difference in songwriting styles as a major explanation for the irregular structure and odd timing aspects in many of John’s songs, compared to those of Paul.

1 November 2012
1.14pm
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

My apologies if someone mentioned this already (but I browsed through this topic and didn’t see it):

 

The ending of “Mean Mr. Mustard” has a cool transition from 4/4 into 3/4 as it blends into “Polythene Pam “.

The following people thank Funny Paper for this post:

Beatlebug

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

1 November 2012
1.28pm
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

McLerristarr said
All You Need Is Love has time signatures of 7/4, 4/4 and 6/4.  Apparently it was the first (and one of only two) songs with a 7/4 time signature to reach the top 20 in the USA.

Though according to Wikipedia jazz legend Dave Brubeck’s song Unsquare Dance only made #74 on the Billboard chart (I think in 1961), it remains the gold standard of 7/4 songs (not that there’s much competition):

 

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/635918

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

12 October 2013
5.35pm
Avatar
parlance
Slaggers
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 7111
Member Since:
8 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Reviving this thread because someone was helping me understand time signatures with “Baby’s In Black ,” and whether or not it was 3/4 or 6/8. I had a breakthrough, and now I find this thread fascinating.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at Vimeo or YouTube.

13 October 2013
4.32am
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

parlance, 6/8 and 3/4 are really the same thing one one level: “do the math” — 6/8 is just twice 3/4.  Usually, a song with /8 is double-tempo, twice as fast.  If one were counting “Oh Darling!” as 3/4, it would just be twice as many measures, but it still works out the same as 6/8.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

13 October 2013
5.27am
Avatar
parlance
Slaggers
Apple rooftop
Members
Forum Posts: 7111
Member Since:
8 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

^^ Yeah, that I knew, I wanted to understand why one would use the 6/8 signature as opposed to 3/4 and I have a better understanding now.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at Vimeo or YouTube.

11 November 2013
4.53pm
Avatar
vectisfabber
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 130
Member Since:
11 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Very interesting….

Although I can see it as a good music theory exercise,  I still wonder why in the 21st century this would matter.

I can see how in the days before recorded music a musician could only go by sheet music; the meter would indicate the cadence.

But today?

Any thoughts on this?

It’s fine as long as it is being played by a group who are happy to play a piece they already know by ear.  But if you have a group who don’t know the piece, sheet music is pretty much essential.

My personal favourite here is She Said She Said , where it feels as if the change from 4:4 to 3:4 kicks in at “When I was a boy” whereas it actually kicks in 2 bars earlier with “No no no, you’re wrong.”

23 April 2014
1.03am
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Got directed (or redirected) to this discussion after I posted my topic about 5/4 time.  I knew in the back of my mind this old topic existed, but I couldn’t find it.

Lots of information and ideas here to sift through, at a later date.  For starters about the motley time signatures of “Good Morning, Good Morning”:

“Ultimately, I have to conclude that John just heard it this way in his head, and played it how he heard it.  I can’t imagine him counting it like that. “

I more or less agree.  Some songwriters would have heard it that way initially, then would have recoiled at all the “wrong” time signatures (i.e., not following 4/4 uniformly from measure to measure), and would have said, “well, we have to adjust things here to make the whole thing fit”.  John must have had the open-minded sense of creativity to say, “why not just do it as it seemed most natural to me at the start, and a fig on ‘correct’ time signatures!”).  And his initial sense of the song one can chalk up to the mysteriously divine inspiration from the Muse of music.

The following people thank Funny Paper for this post:

Beatlebug

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

4 September 2014
8.31am
Avatar
Funny Paper
America
Candlestick Park
Members
Forum Posts: 2080
Member Since:
1 November 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I finally got around to listening carefully to “Good Morning, Good Morning” and following along with the helpful instructions of the weird time beats by Artie Fisk above (basing it on Alan Pollack).

Very cool of John to come up with that.  I never cease to find new things about Beatles songs that amaze and amuse me!

The following people thank Funny Paper for this post:

Beatlebug

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...

5 September 2014
7.56pm
Avatar
Zig
The Toppermost of the Poppermost
Apple rooftop
Members

Reviewers
Forum Posts: 9827
Member Since:
14 April 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Funny Paper said

I never cease to find new things about Beatles songs that amaze and amuse me!

meanmistermustard said the same thing elsewhere (and I agree!) when he said, “the more I hear the Beatles, the more I hear the Beatles”.a-hard-days-night-ringo-13

The following people thank Zig for this post:

Funny Paper, Beatlebug

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, let it roll for all its worth. And all the children boogie.

17 March 2015
11.39am
Avatar
vectisfabber
London Palladium
Members
Forum Posts: 130
Member Since:
11 November 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

mjb said
She Said She Said ‘ also has a time signature change……..

This is a particularly interesting one since the change in time signature doesn’t come when you’d think it should.  You’d expect the shift from 4/4 to 3/4 to come with the triplets “No no no you’re wrong”, but it actually comes on “boy” of “When I was a boy”, one of the smoothest switches of time signature ever.

The following people thank vectisfabber for this post:

Beatlebug
17 March 2015
1.15pm
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 18225
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
Fascinating!!! george-martin
First of all, I must state that my knowledge of music theory is somewhat desultory– I know more than Paul, but that’s not saying much.ahdn_paul_01 Just enough to get by if a piece is fairly simple and if you give me a year or two. I usually choose not to bother with sheet music at all– I’m far better with just “earing”. 
 
 
Having said that, I’ve noticed that the intro to “Here, There And Everywhere ” is rather, well, Here There And Everywhere . I haven’t tested it, but it seems to change time signatures at least twice. (I don’t generally bother with counting it, I just play it. But then, I don’t have three or four other people having to sync up with me.) ahdn_george_06
I have sheet music for it (which I never use), but it’s “arranged”, which means that someone had streamlined it– made it simpler by trimming all the various tempos down into 4/4 (I think the main part of the song is actually 2/4, but I don’t know) and leaving some of the finer shades of syncopation plain quavers. ahdn_george_08grrrrrrrr. 
 
Oh, just remembered another thing. “Not Guilty ” is actually quite guilty– of being a time signature nightmare. It starts off in a regular, swing sort of beat (“noooot guilty”) , then goes off to this other thing entirely (“for gettin’ in the way, while you’re trynna steal the day”) that almost seems to lack a regular beat. It’s frightening, truly it is. No wonder it took over a hundred takes! paul-mccartney
 
 
This thread is interesting because many of the Beatles’ songs are foot-tappingly regular, and it’s neat to come across ones where your feet get left behind. (Yes, I mean you, George. Do you even know what tempo “HCTS” is in? No? Didn’t think so.) ahdn_paul_02a-hard-days-night-george-9

([{BRACKETS!}])
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
If you love The Beatles Bible, and you have adblock, don't forget to white-list this site!
whiteheart.png
avatar_creative_signature_Hmm.pngStarSpangledBanner.png

17 March 2015
1.53pm
Avatar
PeterWeatherby
A Park in the Dark
Ed Sullivan Show
Members
Forum Posts: 418
Member Since:
5 February 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Silly Girl said

  
Having said that, I’ve noticed that the intro to “Here, There And Everywhere ” is rather, well, Here There And Everywhere . I haven’t tested it, but it seems to change time signatures at least twice. (I don’t generally bother with counting it, I just play it. But then, I don’t have three or four other people having to sync up with me.) 

The intro is done “rubato,” as the Italians say: freestyle, without adherence to a strict tempo. But it’s still technically in 4/4.

To add to some of the other songs you mentioned: I can never quite get the rhythm right for “I Don’t Want To Be A Soldier.” And for that matter, “Well, Well, Well” isn’t exactly easy either. For a rhythm guitarist, John sure seemed to have a “screw it, I’ll just start singing whenever it feels right” approach sometimes. :)

The following people thank PeterWeatherby for this post:

Beatlebug

Not a bit like Cagney.

17 March 2015
2.01pm
Avatar
Beatlebug
Find me where ye echo lays
Moderator

Moderators
Forum Posts: 18225
Member Since:
15 February 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

PeterWeatherby chuckled wryly 

<BIG SLICE>
  For a rhythm guitarist, John sure seemed to have a “screw it, I’ll just start singing whenever it feels right” approach sometimes. :)

a-hard-days-night-john-6

That reminds me, the beginning of “Here Today ” is somewhat eccentric as well. I learned how to play it about two months ago, and it’s taken me nearly this long to realise that he doesn’t start singing on the beat, as I’d supposed and been doing it all this time, but actually comes in about half a beat off. It’s weird. Also doesn’t help that the recording is mixed so that his guitar is nearly inaudible. paul-mccartney 

stay-on-topic

([{BRACKETS!}])
New to Forumpool? You can introduce yourself here.
If you love The Beatles Bible, and you have adblock, don't forget to white-list this site!
whiteheart.png
avatar_creative_signature_Hmm.pngStarSpangledBanner.png

17 March 2015
5.00pm
Avatar
ewe2
Inside the beat
Rishikesh
Members
Forum Posts: 3031
Member Since:
8 January 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Just to be extra annoying, they start Drive My Car on a half-beat with the guitar and the bass comes in likewise and sits there for a whole measure, and then the drums kick in on the normal beat…and the vocals start a beat into the next measure. I usually try to focus on the bass, but then the drum fill confuses me again! Pollack calls it “two measures-worth of the Beatles most rhythmically disorienting music ever”. I’ve no idea how they recorded it.

I kind of dispute the idea that Lennon wrote songs around lyrics so much as he found riffs that fit them, and generally didn’t think in 4/4 that well. McCartney often backed them up by filling in those rhythms, Good Morning Good Morning is a classic example of that, on Anthology 2 its straight guitar stabs most of the way through and the bass sitting inside each time signature (its a lot of fun to play too!). I always felt She Said She Said was an influence on Here Comes The Sun because both mid-sections are all about the riff and the rhythm just has to keep up (poor Ringo, he had to remember all this!).

You can’t go past George’s classic Only A Northern Song for time signature/off-beat madness. The key to it is to not be fooled by Ringo’s air fills, the verse goes along fine in 4/4 until “he just wrote it like that” which flicks into 2/4 for a measure and then straight back into 4/4. It drops into 3/4 just for the “only a northern” and back into 4/4 for the “song” and pauses for another disorienting Ringo air fill before lurching into the 4/4 pattern for the next verse. Another good example of how John’s songwriting influenced George.

The following people thank ewe2 for this post:

Beatlebug, vonbontee

I'm like Necko only I'm a bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin and also everyone. Or is everyone me? Now I'm a confused bassist ukulele guitar synthesizer kazoo penguin everyone who is definitely not @Joe.  This has been true for 2016 & 2017 Sig-Badge.png but I may have to get more specific in the future.

aus-flag-v-small.png

Forum Timezone: Europe/London
Most Users Ever Online: 2057
Currently Online:
Guest(s) 264
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
Starr Shine?: 16105
Ron Nasty: 12534
Zig: 9827
50yearslate: 8759
Necko: 8047
AppleScruffJunior: 7585
parlance: 7111
mr. Sun king coming together: 6394
Mr. Kite: 6147
trcanberra: 6064
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 88
Members: 2916
Moderators: 5
Admins: 1
Forum Stats:
Groups: 3
Forums: 44
Topics: 5553
Posts: 383699
Newest Members:
charleygrey, SgtPepper1967, james_the_eggman, jamesthewalrus, TatterCat
Moderators: Joe: 5713, meanmistermustard: 25144, Ahhh Girl: 22624, Beatlebug: 18225, The Hole Got Fixed: 8410
Administrators: Joe: 5713