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3.42am
17 October 2013
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Some light relief for the Hole got fixed.
5.07am
26 January 2017
Offline Ah, here’s Jordan Peterson crying about Bill C-16, and saying that trans women aren’t women because they don’t have XX chromosomes, can’t give birth and have female genitalia. Fun fact: that C-86 bill, which right wingers fear mongered about and portrayed as some kind of Orwellian nightmare has sent a grand total of 0 people to jail (compared to the thousands of unsuspecting innocents simply using the wrong pronouns that were predicted).
So does he think that women going through menopause, or women who are unable to have children for medical reasons, are no longer women? How does he explain people whose genitalia doesn’t match their chromosome? It seems to me that the conclusion of what he is saying would be to acknowledge that the gender binary is not a good model for looking at these things, because clearly there are a lot of exceptions in the pattern. He’s made his definition of what it means to be a woman too wide, I think, and in doing so has left it open for holes and inconsistencies.
A good analogy for it, and I might have posted this before, is comparing trans people (in this instance I’m going to talk about trans women for simplicity) to adoptive parents. Adoptive parents, of course, aren’t the biological parents of their child. Does that stop them from being considered the parents? No. An adoptive parent, in every single context of life other than a doctor’s office, is their child’s parent (because a doctor needs to know to do with stuff such as hereditary conditions and whatnot). Just the same as how a trans woman is a woman in every single context of life other than a doctor’s office (in which the doctor has to treat them according to their biology). But you wouldn’t say to an adoptive parent “you’re lying! you clearly have a mental illness if you think that you are that child’s parent”. That would be considered extremely disrespectful.
Typically, when you have those types of journalists who have a clear lack of objectivity, they completely misunderstand the points people like JP are making. Like here, how they interpreted his opposition to C-16 as against trans people when in fact it was due to mandated speech. They’re kind of different issues, but the journalists were trying to make it sound like one was the cause of the other. Ugh, it annoys me that so many people on the left act like this. Calling out right wingers for their nonsense should be like shooting fish in a barrel but instead it turns out like this.
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ScarlettFieldsForever, 50yearslateI've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound.
6.45am
17 October 2013
Offline 
I didn’t notice him crying. Just calmly stating facts. There was no crying or whining or any other synonym for those words. He was measured, calm and thoughtful…. as always.
Of course as you point out in your, ‘what about?’ section there are exceptions to straightforward male/female describers…. Hermaphrodites…..Women with XX chromosomes but who have undergone hysterectomies,…….Men who have had their balls removed and their penis turned inside out to form a rudimentary but not biologically accurate vagina, added breast implants and a bikini wax. They can make their bodies fit as best as they can with their feminine self-image and should be treated with respect…..But so should Peterson’s resistance to accepting mandated speech however minimal the penalties would be. Respect shouldn’t be a one-way street. That’s the kernel of his (I think), valid point. He stated clearly that his whole battle is with mandated speech not with trans people, and more power to him. He also stated he has personally used pronouns that trans people have requested. of him.
The adopted trans example is a good one. I would certainly acknowledge the adoptive mother and father should be called ‘mother and father’ in normal practice but it’s also possible that a biological mother and father also exist and their biological connection should also be recognised even if the adoptive parents have legal custody.
I’m in complete agreement with your last statements which are very perceptive.
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QuarryMan, Beatlebug6.50am
9 March 2017
Offline Wigwam, that whole thing about the finger length is a stereotype and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Also, a lot of people get that bill wrong. The goal is to prosecute those who INTENTIONALLY misgender someone, not to prosecute those who accidentally misgender someone and in that regards, i agree with the bill (although i agree it’s a bit harsh) since free speech shouldn’t mean you have the right to verbally insult someone.
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QuarryManIf you're reading this, you are looking for something to do.
7.43am
26 January 2017
Offline Yeah fair enough he wasn’t crying or anything like that, it was hyperbole on my part for him being so concerned over this. For me I agree with DO that the intentions of C-16 are good, but admittedly I do see the concern as there isn’t really much precedent for government mandating speech.
What I’m wondering is whether misgendering someone could be considered libel or slander, and therefore could be grounds for prosecution in most countries without the need for a law like C-16. Alternatively, deliberately misgendering someone could also be considered hate speech in a way, so maybe that’s a route this might end up going down.
I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound.
9.21am
17 October 2013
Offline I think stereotype is the wrong word DO…….’Indicator’ might be closer, but it is based on some science, though as you suggest that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily accurate……I’ve always thought of it as a bit of fun. I’ve looked at a lot more women’s hands than mens. Most women had the index and third the exact same size. The exceptions have been sporty…..
I recall at the time of the lecture I brought this up in the bar…..I looked at my squash team mate’s hands on club night …..only about 8 men sitting round…..Almost all had masculine hands…The one exception was the team’s best player. Both ring and third finger were exactly the same length…….Interestingly and perhaps coincidentally he’s gay and works with people as a male nurse.
As I say just a bit of fun….and nothing to get hung about.
Here’s some of the science…..If psychology counts as that!!
6.50pm
17 October 2013
Offline What do you think?
4.52am
26 January 2017
Offline I’m not sure of the difference between in-state tuition and out of state tuition, which they seem to be differentiating between here, so Idk.
I've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound.
5.21am
14 June 2016
Offline General thought here: I’m a big believer in being yourself. Anything else is not just lying to the world, but to yourself. Our own personalities are stronger because they’re natural and authentic. It’s almost like a superpower in the confidence it gives. No one else in the world can be you, so embrace that. Even if it means being a nerdy introvert. Don’t be seeking to change yourself to please others. If people truly like you, they’ll like the real you, and you’ll attract the right friends.
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4.08pm
Moderators
15 February 2015
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Timothy spaketh
General thought here: I’m a big believer in being yourself. Anything else is not just lying to the world, but to yourself. Our own personalities are stronger because they’re natural and authentic. It’s almost like a superpower in the confidence it gives. No one else in the world can be you, so embrace that. Even if it means being a nerdy introvert. Don’t be seeking to change yourself to please others. If people truly like you, they’ll like the real you, and you’ll attract the right friends.
This is basically my entire life philosophy. I think I’m actually incapable of doing otherwise. 
(my Aries is showing again 
)
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5.59pm
26 January 2017
Offline Pursuit of individual happiness is where it’s at.
The following people thank QuarryMan for this post:
BeatlebugI've been up on the mountain, and I've seen his wondrous grace,
I've sat there on the barstool and I've looked him in the face.
He seemed a little haggard, but it did not slow him down,
he was humming to the neon of the universal sound.
7.32am
17 October 2013
Offline Some of you might like this…..
I really enjoyed watching this………..Have to say in nearly all cases of difference I was pleased I’m a boy…..And for where being a girl has ‘advantages’…..there’s none that I’m in envy of.
Even you ‘guys’ that yawned at the words, ‘men and women are different’…It’s likely you WILL learn something………..
3.38pm
9 March 2017
Offline What are your thoughts on voting?
Personally, i think everyone should be allowed to vote, even if you’re the Boston bomber. Letting anyone vote doesn’t hurt anyone because you can’t just vote for anyone, you have to vote for someone on the roster. However, i am also against mandatory voting, even if it’s only mandatory attendance.
If you're reading this, you are looking for something to do.
4.22pm
Moderators
27 November 2016
Offline Democracy relies on everyone voting, so I think people from 16-18 should be allowed to vote (but not compulsory), then it’s compulsory for everyone else.
I’ve heard calls for a maximum voting age, that’s interesting and somewhat a good idea, but also somewhat a bad idea.
#AppleHoley2024: Make America Great For The First Time
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4.54pm
15 November 2018
Offline I think if people are affected by laws, they should be able to vote on those laws.
Obviously there are some exceptions to this rule (like babies) but I think for the most part it works.
I’d love to be able to vote, but sadly, I’ll have to wait. I can’t even vote in the 2020 election 
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8.54pm
30 April 2019
Offline I don’t think voting should be mandatory because some people choose not to be informed because they don’t care, and I think rightly decide not to vote as a result. I don’t like the idea of uninformed people being forced to vote and having significant influence in an election.
If you want to increase voter turnout, make it easier to vote for the people who actually want to.
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Beatlebug, 50yearslate, Getbackintheussr2.27am
17 October 2013
Offline ‘Ave a look……..
2.40am
Moderators
27 November 2016
Offline ‘voting is a skill that needs to be taught’
That has been taught in Australia, to at least a basic level. A massive portion of the population knows how to vote properly (and I don’t mean how to write 1 in a box)
#AppleHoley2024: Make America Great For The First Time
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3.50am
17 October 2013
Offline Couldn’t say the same for my UK experience………
Had I had a vote at 16, or even earlier I’d vote for the sweet shop owner in the Socrates video every time.
6.34am
Moderators
27 November 2016
Offline Wigwam said
Couldn’t say the same for my UK experience………Had I had a vote at 16, or even earlier I’d vote for the sweet shop owner in the Socrates video every time.
That’s definitely changed. I feel like 80% of people in my year level are quite passionate about their political views, whatever they are – I’ve had so many discussions with so many different people my age, I feel like everyone is getting more informed as the years have gone by.
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